"White Flag Democrats" ?! Nice. I guess I thought you were above the name calling. Guess not. Thanks for contributing to that problem.

I pray for the Iraqi people to elect a parliament who sees the proposed constitution as the theocratic manifesto that it is. I hope for not too many of them to get killed on the way to voting and I hope the troops will be home soon.

And while I hope for these things, I can't say I'm optimistic.

Posted by Bella, 12/14/2005 11:27:13 PM

There was no name calling. "White flag" is an accurate and succinct description. I'm referring to those Democrats who want us to cut and run. We're winning and the Iraqis are getting their sea legs about them, so we ought to now surrender, according to Murtha, Pelosi, Dean, Reid, etc... hell of a philosophy. It's that attitude that's the problem, so I'll call it what it is. It's an attitude that can cost many, many more lives by giving up and going home and turning a blind eye. It's irresponsible. In fact, it's myopic and political. And the media is complicit for not painting a true picture of the situation.

My hope is that the troops stay as long as is needed to finish the job correctly. That's their hope, too - or at least the majority of those who are there. Finishing this so that the Iraqis can stand as a democracy on their own is what's right to do, so it's what we ought to do.

Posted by Brett Rogers (http://www.beatcanvas.com), 12/15/2005 12:50:25 AM

The Iraqis will never stand on a democracy as their own. Nor should they. It is a culture based on 4000 years of religious based rule. It is an environment we have no clue about. Nothing we do is going to create any kind of stable democracy. It's only going to kill more people, military and civilian, American and Iraqi. It's incredibly condescending of us to go in and presume to know what's best for them. Democracy is wonderful. I'm proud to live under it, and while I may not be proud of our president, I'm proud of our way of governing. But we based our country on it without millenia of religious cultural baggage to get in its way. Democracy is the best way---for us. For them, and their culture, it may not be. My point is, who the hell are we to say?

I am glad Saddam is gone. Yay us. But to think we are going to create democracy in that environment is arrogant and naive.

Posted by Bella, 12/15/2005 12:29:32 PM

I can give you over 10 million reasons why democracy is not only wanted in Iraq, but will succeed. Each one of those is voting today.

If introducing democracy to them is a bad idea, they'd stay home. No one is making them go. And if you read their own accounts of how they feel about it, it's very much what they want.

Democracy is not an American concept. It's a human concept. It's about freedom, which has great appeal to every person on the planet. Which is exactly why it will succeed.

Posted by Brett Rogers (http://www.beatcanvas.com), 12/15/2005 12:53:25 PM

I'm not saying that introducing them to the concept is a bad idea. I'm not saying that democracy is a bad idea. But if the people of Iraq wanted democracy, our version of it, once Saddam was gone, it would have happened on it's own and people wouldn't be blowing up car bombs on a daily basis.

Posted by Bella, 12/15/2005 2:06:53 PM

Here are a couple of quotes from an LA Times article that might help explain why a jump to democracy probably wouldn't have happened on its own.

Many Sunni voters today said they did not vote in January's parliamentary election, either as part of a boycott out of security fears. Today, they voted with enthusiasm, mostly for one of several Sunni slates or the secular list led by former interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.

"I didn't vote in January because at the time the political realities were not clear," said Abdul Samariyee, 65, a retired tax collector in Baghdad's Qadasiya district, where police were spotted driving a pregnant woman to the polling station. "Now, Iraqis have begun to realize that the peaceful way is better than violence to get their demands."

"I am proud as an Iraqi because our country is becoming a center of attraction for all Arab countries," said Mohammad Wadi, a 50-year-old Shiite schoolteacher casting his ballot in the capital's Karada district.

He added, "The new situation in Iraq, the democratic system, is starting to put pressure on the Arab systems to make some changes toward democracy."

Believe me, I would have much rather that the Iraqis would have done this on their own without our military coming in there and costing a couple thousand American lives. But as the Iraqis have noticed, democracy is a government of peace and much preferred. It took us to show that to them. Better for the world in the long run, and the impact on the mideast will be huge and very long-term.

Posted by Brett Rogers (http://www.beatcanvas.com), 12/15/2005 2:32:39 PM

Democracy in the United State didn't just happen on it's own. The would be leaders of the new world started working on papers to reconcile differences with Great Britain in 1765 (Stamp Act Congress). When in 1775 nothing had been accomplished, people got a bit frustrated and the American Revolution War started, lasting until 1783, during which time the Declaration of Independence was written and adopted by the first 13 colonies (July 1776). The United States constitution wasn't drawn up and signed until September of 1787 and wasn't ratified until June of 1788. Even then it took until 1789 to have a working federal government in place. That's 24 years of work with an eight year war thrown in and you think by the simple fact that Saddam is gone, democracy in Iraq is just going to "happen on it's own"? That's pretty naive.

These people have no clue what freedom really is. It's something they've only heard of. It's something that got them killed if they were to talk about it. Yet, a little over two years into this, 10 to 11 million Iraqis were brave enough to chance a run in with a car bomb toting idiot (terrorist) to cast their vote. I'd say that's one hell of a cry out in favor of giving democracy a try. I'm happy we were able to facilitate this change and are proud to be able to give them the hand they need to see it through. I can't imagine ever living under the rule they lived under. I have a hard time understanding anybody who would be content to see it continue. Will it be a democracy identical to ours? I doubt it. However it turns out it will be heads and tails better than what they leave behind.

If throughout the course of history nobody ever lifted a finger to fight for freedom, either their own or to help others, we'd all be living under the rule of dictators such as Saddam, or worse. No sane person likes war. I certainly don't, but, it's sometimes a necessary evil.

Something that upsets me is how so many Americans don't understand what we are fighting. These terrorists aren't just people riding around in TnT stuffed cars looking to get their rocks off by blowing up the first crowd of innocent bystanders they see. These thugs want you and me dead. They want our way of life and everything we stand
for to just go away. If they had the ability to use nuclear weapons on us, THEY WOULD (Iran anybody?). They know if democracy wins, they lose. That's fine with me.

Posted by Kelly, 12/16/2005 4:25:05 AM

Dude, that's friggin' outstanding. I defer to what he said because he said it really well.

Posted by Brett Rogers (http://www.beatcanvas.com), 12/16/2005 6:47:53 AM

Hear, hear. After that, I got nothing. Kelly, Brett -- you folks rock.

Can I have permission to blog about this thread?

Posted by Anonymous, 12/16/2005 9:02:12 AM

Go for it, Kris :)

Posted by Brett Rogers (http://www.beatcanvas.com), 12/16/2005 9:05:47 AM

People got a bit frustrated and the American Revolution War started, lasting until 1783, during which time the Declaration of Independence was written and adopted by the first 13 colonies (July 1776).

Thanks for the history lesson. Who knew? :-)
Yep. The people started revolting. And yes it took time. And we pulled it all off, and built the greatest country in the world without anybody invading the country to "help" (granted we asked for some help from places like France and Spain, and got it---but we asked) or telling us how to do it.

"These people" have seen freedom and strive for it, most people do. As Brett said, it's a human thing, not a political one. If only it were as simple as that. "We people", however, have never lived in a fundamentally Islamic culture (let alone one as ancient as any of the middle-eastern cultures) and have no clue what we are working with. That's why the best way for the Iraqi people to form any kind of "democracy" or at least a freedom based rule, is to do it on their own. And it will, more than likely, cause civil strife. But it will be their country, and their government, and far more stable in the long run for it.

Just my opinion. Sorry if it doesn't rock. :-)

Posted by Bella, 12/16/2005 12:21:19 PM

Bella, I'm confused by your point... from where I sit, the Iraqis are building this democracy on their own.

Our contribution is to keep the country from being overrun by another country (like Iran), a tyrannical strongman (like Saddam), or by some entity other than the people of Iraq. That's it. We didn't write their constitution (which is much different than ours), didn't organize the government (ours is not a parliament), or choose it leaders (which the people accomplish themselves via the elections).

So unless I'm missing something, we just agreed. Since it's theirs and not something that we've fashioned for them, it will be their country, their government, and more stable as a result.

Did I miss something? Or do you think that the US is fashioning this for them, and is that where we disagree?

Posted by Brett Rogers (http://www.beatcanvas.com), 12/16/2005 12:44:53 PM

We lived in a very different world back then, too. A world without tanks, jet fighters, laser guided missiles, AK-47's, 9mm Glocks, IED's, car bombs. The list could go on. We lived in a world where a determined group of people could pull off such a feat. Especially after relocating to a country on the other side of an ocean that didn't need to oust a dictator to begin with. We had it easy. That's not the case today. Due to technological advancements in weaponry and the availability to it, I doubt what is happening in Iraq today would be remotely possible without outside help.

Iraq is forming their own government. It was Iraqi citizens who voted, not American. If they didn't want change, they wouldn't have voted. I saw one report on the news last night where when asked why they voted, an Iraqi man said, "(paraphrased) I voted to help get the USA out of here. We appreciate what you've done but it's time you left". Brovo! I think it's working. It won't happen over night, but it will happen.

Posted by Kelly, 12/16/2005 3:28:46 PM

Check out a funny site dedicated to the absurdity and satire nature of saying “It’s All George Bush’s Fault!"

http://www.iagbf.com
http://www.itsallgeorgebushsfault.com

I hope that you don't think this is spam. I really do think that you'd appreciate a site like this since we share the same idealogy. Hopefully you like it enough to blogroll

Regards,
Notta Libb

Posted by Notta Libb, 12/22/2005 6:29:38 AM